Alternative time clock scheme
Guy Macon - 25 Mar 2008 03:13 GMT I am not saying this is a good idea as it stands, but rather I am throwing it out there as a thought experiment to see if someone comes up with a better variation.
For comparison, let's start with a 40/120, D/60 time control with a USCF-Style delay of 5 seconds.
Replace the USCF-style the delay with a Fischer increment (meaning 5 seconds are added to your clock when you hit the button rather than the clock waiting 5 seconds before starting to count down -- the difference being that with a Fischer delay you can gain time by moving quickly).
Now replace the 40/120, D/60 with SD/10 or SD/20, but with the Fischer delay set to 3 minutes.
This, of course, wouldn't make matches end by the next round, but when playing a club game or a game at work, it would avoid the rather artificial "race until the time control changes then relax" effect.
 Signature Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/>
David Richerby - 25 Mar 2008 09:44 GMT > For comparison, let's start with a 40/120, D/60 time control with a > USCF-Style delay of 5 seconds. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > difference being that with a Fischer delay you can gain time by > moving quickly). Your `USCF-style delay' is usually credited to David Bronstein, rather than the USCF.
> Now replace the 40/120, D/60 with SD/10 or SD/20, but with the > Fischer delay set to 3 minutes. Are people not already doing this? Starting with only twenty minutes on the clock seems a bit short for serious games, even with a three-minute increment, but the basic idea is very sound.
> This, of course, wouldn't make matches end by the next round, but > when playing a club game or a game at work, it would avoid the > rather artificial "race until the time control changes then relax" > effect. At work, I don't have time for six-hour games of chess!
Dave.
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Guy Macon - 25 Mar 2008 10:56 GMT >> For comparison, let's start with a 40/120, D/60 time control with a >> USCF-Style delay of 5 seconds. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Your `USCF-style delay' is usually credited to David Bronstein, rather >than the USCF. You are correct. I apologize; in my haste I mentally confused the three major methods (Fischer, Bronstein, FIDE) and somehow managed to insert the term "USCF" in there. Sorry about that.
http://www.dgtprojects.com/clock_timingmethods.htm#bronstein
>> Now replace the 40/120, D/60 with SD/10 or SD/20, but with the >> Fischer delay set to 3 minutes. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >At work, I don't have time for six-hour games of chess! I once did nothing but play chess for over a week while sitting in the bunker next to a launchpad as the countdown got stopped or reset multiple times. Got the bird into orbit at the end, though!
Sanny - 25 Mar 2008 16:49 GMT > >Your `USCF-style delay' is usually credited to David Bronstein, rather > >than the USCF. > > You are correct. I apologize; in my haste I mentally confused > the three major methods (Fischer, Bronstein, FIDE) and somehow > managed to insert the term "USCF" in there. Sorry about that. ARE YOU a SCIENTIST ??? This Symptom is very common among them.
Bye Sanny
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Guy Macon - 25 Mar 2008 18:41 GMT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit
>> >Your `USCF-style delay' is usually credited to David Bronstein, >> >rather than the USCF. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >ARE YOU a SCIENTIST ??? This Symptom is very common among them. Sorry, I don't answer questions asked by known spammers.
 Signature Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/>
Chess One - 26 Mar 2008 00:05 GMT >>> For comparison, let's start with a 40/120, D/60 time control with a >>> USCF-Style delay of 5 seconds. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the three major methods (Fischer, Bronstein, FIDE) and somehow > managed to insert the term "USCF" in there. Sorry about that. 4. There is also Kasparov delay, which doesn't add time, but doesn't count time for X seconds. Phil Innes
> http://www.dgtprojects.com/clock_timingmethods.htm#bronstein > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > or reset multiple times. Got the bird into orbit at the end, > though! jkh001@aim.com - 26 Mar 2008 00:26 GMT > >>> For comparison, let's start with a 40/120, D/60 time control with a > >>> USCF-Style delay of 5 seconds. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > or reset multiple times. Got the bird into orbit at the end, > > though! Why would you attribute that method to Kasparov? It's the USCF standard, and has been so since the early 90s.
There are essentially three "delay" methods. The USCF ("time delay") doesn't start the clock for x seconds after the button has been pushed. The "Bronstein" method starts counting down immediately, but adds x seconds when you stop your clock, up to a max of the time you had when you clock started. The effect is _almost_ identical to the first, though there is a tiny difference if you are very short of time. The "Fischer" method is the same as Bronstein, except that your time can accumulate without limit. If you want to argue about the names, go ahead (though I don't plan to listen), but these are the options available if you want to design a new time control.
Guy Macon - 26 Mar 2008 02:58 GMT >> There is also Kasparov delay, which doesn't add time, but >> doesn't count time for X seconds. Phil Innes > >Why would you attribute that method to Kasparov? For the same reason he calls Turing machines "Turing engines"?
The Kasparov delay does exist, but has only been used once, on the 26th move of game 2 of the 1987 Karpov vs. Kasparov title match. It never really caught on, and even Kasparov himself avoided it after that one experiment.
>It's the USCF standard, and has been so since the early 90s. >There are essentially three "delay" methods. The USCF ("time delay") [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >time. The "Fischer" method is the same as Bronstein, except that your >time can accumulate without limit. Please read the following URLs: http://www.dgtprojects.com/clock_timingmethods.htm#bronstein http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_clock#Delay_clocks
If you disagree with them please provide your sources.
>If you want to argue about the names, go ahead (though I >don't plan to listen) You should care whether Bronstein gets credit for what Bronstein invented and whether Fischer gets credit for what Fischer invented.
(And I should have checked before my original post rather than going by memory...)
jkh001@aim.com - 26 Mar 2008 04:03 GMT > >> There is also Kasparov delay, which doesn't add time, but > >> doesn't count time for X seconds. Phil Innes [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > (And I should have checked before my original post rather than > going by memory...) The DGT page is probably correct, but it was obviously written by a non-English-speaker, and probably a non-chess-player, so it's a little hard to be sure. The Wikipedia page is incomplete, as it does not mention non-addback delay, used almost exclusively in U.S. tournaments. (Probably written by a Euro.) I may modify it, but it's not high on my list of priorities.
David Richerby - 26 Mar 2008 13:06 GMT >> Please read the following URLs: >> http://www.dgtprojects.com/clock_timingmethods.htm#bronstein [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The Wikipedia page is incomplete, as it does not mention non-addback > delay... Yes it does! It calls it `Bronstein delay', like the rest of the world, the USCF included.
> ... used almost exclusively in U.S. tournaments. (Probably written > by a Euro.) Regardless of my nationality or that of the author, I see no reason to credit Bronstein's system to the USCF.
Dave.
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Kenneth Sloan - 26 Mar 2008 21:22 GMT >>> Please read the following URLs: >>> http://www.dgtprojects.com/clock_timingmethods.htm#bronstein [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Dave. Especially because the standard USCF delay is not Bronstein.
It's *equivalent* to Bronstein - but it's not the same thing, at all.
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Guy Macon - 26 Mar 2008 21:57 GMT >the standard USCF delay is not Bronstein. > >It's *equivalent* to Bronstein - but it's >not the same thing, at all. Interesting! What is the difference?
jkh001@aim.com - 27 Mar 2008 07:16 GMT > >the standard USCF delay is not Bronstein. > > > >It's *equivalent* to Bronstein - but it's > >not the same thing, at all. > > Interesting! What is the difference? Didn't we go over this already? With "Bronstein" (non-cumulative addback), your clock starts running as soon as your opponent presses the button, but, when you _stop_ your clock, it adds back time (typically, though not necessarily, five seconds), up to a maximum of the time you had when your clock started. Under "delay," used by USCF, your clock does not _start_ counting down until a set period (like five seconds) has elapsed. Mathematically, the effects are identical, though there might be a small psychological difference if you were in extreme time pressure.
David Richerby - 27 Mar 2008 13:08 GMT > With "Bronstein" (non-cumulative addback), your clock starts running > as soon as your opponent presses the button, but, when you _stop_ [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Mathematically, the effects are identical, though there might be a > small psychological difference if you were in extreme time pressure. The effects most certainly are not `mathematically identical'. With what you're calling `Bronstein', if you have five seconds on your clock at the point when I make my move, you must move within five seconds (which you'll get back for your next move). With what you're calling `delay', you have ten seconds to make your move.
Dave.
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Guy Macon - 28 Mar 2008 21:37 GMT >> >the standard USCF delay is not Bronstein. >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >your clock does not _start_ counting down until a set period (like >five seconds) has elapsed. Mathematically, the effects are identical, (See the second-to-last pagaraph below)
>though there might be a small psychological difference if you were in >extreme time pressure. Do you have a reference showing that the name "Bronstein" is correct for the former and that the name "Standard USCF delay" is correct for the latter? In particular, id there any evidence that the latter was invented by the USCF and not Bronstein?
Here are descriptions of six ways to handle delays, followed by what I believe are the proper names for each. I welcome any discusion/corrections/references concerning whether I got the naming right.
NO DELAY, NO INCREMENT: When you start your clock, it starts decrementing. (Analog chess clocks act this way).
DELAY: When you start your clock, it freezes for N seconds and then starts decrementing.
INCREMENT AT START (IAS): When you start your clock, it instantly increments by N seconds, then starts decrementing.
INCREMENT AT END (IAA): When you start your clock, it starts decrementing. When your opponent starts his clock (thus stopping yours), your clock instantly increments by N seconds.
INCREMENT AT END WITH LIMIT (IIEL): When you start your clock, it starts decrementing. When your opponent starts his clock (thus stopping yours), your clock instantly increments by N seconds or the amount of time you used, whichever is smaller.
DUAL INCREMENT (DI): When you start your clock, the clocks of both players instantly increment by N seconds, then your clock starts decrementing. When your opponent starts his clock (thus stopping yours), the clocks of both players instantly increment by N seconds, then your opponent's clock starts decrementing. N is half the size of the other schemes.
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I believe that the following naming is correct, but I welcome corrections -- especially with references.
DELAY is properly called Bronstein Delay. It is sometimes called Andante, US-style or USCF-style,
INCREMENT AT START is properly called Fischer Increment. It is sometimes called FIDE-style, bonus, or progressive.
INCREMENT AT END is, as far as I can tell, only a theoretical possibility, not used in actual play. I can't think of any advantage it has over Fischer Increment.
INCREMENT AT END WITH LIMIT is properly called Bronstein Increment. It is sometimes called Adagio or non-cumulative addback.
DUAL INCREMENT is something I just invented on the spot. If nobody else thought of it first and it caches on, I claim the name "Macon Increment" <grin>.
Bronstein Delay and Bronstein Increment have a subtle real-world difference. Imagine two players, each with five seconds left. One is using Bronstein Delay and the other Bronstein Increment. The Bronstein Delay player has ten seconds before he loses on time -- five seconds with his clock frozen and five seconds as it decrements down to zero. The Bronstein Increment player has five seconds before he loses on time. Adding 5 seconds at the very start of the Bronstein Increment or allowing the Bronstein Increment player to run out of time then increment back to where he still has time would make them mathematically equivalent, but there would still be a big psychological difference.
Does anyone know exactly how Bronstein described his invention? I rather suspect that he described either Bronstein Delay or Bronstein Increment and that an electronic chess clock manufacturer created the other variation.
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David Richerby - 26 Mar 2008 13:00 GMT > There are essentially three "delay" methods. The USCF ("time delay") > doesn't start the clock for x seconds after the button has been > pushed. The "Bronstein" method starts counting down immediately, but > adds x seconds when you stop your clock, up to a max of the time you > had when you clock started. I think you're mistaken.
Wikipedia[1] says, `Bronstein delay -- when it becomes a player's turn to move, the clock waits for the delay period before starting to subtract from the player's remaining time,' which is exactly what you describe as the USCF system. Backgammon Galore[2] says the same thing (follow the link to their definition of `time delay'). Perhaps most significantly, even the USCF itself defines a Bronstein delay by saying, `Before the principal thinking time is reduced the player has a fixed amount of time to complete a move.'[3]
On a brief search, I didn't find any sources that mention any kind of delay other than `Bronstein' and `Fischer' and I didn't find anywhere that defined `Bronstein delay' in the way that you do.
Dave.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_clock#Delay_clocks [2] http://www.bkgm.com/gloss/lookup.cgi?bronstein+clock [3] http://uscfsales.com/item.asp?cID=0&PID=404
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Chess One - 26 Mar 2008 13:34 GMT > Why would you attribute that method to Kasparov? It's the USCF > standard, and has been so since the early 90s. And where did USCF get the idea?
I helped design the Kasparov net-clock which utilised the delay, and which differed from Bronstein and Fischer, which added time - we know that you can play fast but nonsense moves and still win on time, since opponent must consider what you did and that takes at least a second or two, and this was making a nonsense of the chess position.
That clock actually has Bronstein and Fischer built into it as well.
> There are essentially three "delay" methods. The USCF ("time delay") > doesn't start the clock for x seconds after the button has been [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > time can accumulate without limit. If you want to argue about the > names, go ahead (though I don't plan to listen), You mean, you have started to 'argue' or suggest the origin of the idea as if it were USCF's idea, and having made your declaration to others have no interest in a reply. Sounds like USCF itself!
But thanks for the /petit-lecture/!
Phil Innes
> but these are the > options available if you want to design a new time control. jkh001@aim.com - 27 Mar 2008 07:23 GMT > > Why would you attribute that method to Kasparov? It's the USCF > > standard, and has been so since the early 90s. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > but these are the > > options available if you want to design a new time control. Phil, save the hissy-fit for someone who cares. You've been completely out of tournament chess for years, and obviously have no idea what's actually going on. The three methods are different, and failing to distinguish among them leads to sloppy thinking and sloppy argument. The _origin_ of these systems is a different question, which you are free to discuss on a new thread. Tossing this out in an attempt to distract attention from your own ignorance is the sort of thing that's earned you a reputation as an annoying troll.
richardhutnik@gmail.com - 25 Mar 2008 23:33 GMT > I am not saying this is a good idea as it stands, > but rather I am throwing it out there as a thought [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > it would avoid the rather artificial "race until the > time control changes then relax" effect. What is your reason for wanting to change how the chess clock works? I can see one main reason, and it isn't for the players. The reason is for the spectators, in order to keep a chess game more evenly paced. I would recommend the Bronstein version without the time bonus that the Fischer clock adds. Unless you are catering to spectators, I am not sure why you want to do it.
- Rich
Guy Macon - 26 Mar 2008 02:34 GMT >> I am not saying this is a good idea as it stands, >> but rather I am throwing it out there as a thought [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >What is your reason for wanting to change how the chess >clock works? What part of "I am throwing this out there as a thought experiment" are you having trouble understanding?
My position hasn't changed. The FIDE rules are just fine as they are. I and several others here enjoy thinking about different ways of doing things, but that does not imply any particular desire for chnage.
richardhutnik@gmail.com - 26 Mar 2008 16:30 GMT > richardhut...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > different ways of doing things, but that does not imply any > particular desire for chnage. Well, in response to your usenet pondering, I was also asking what benefit would be gained by it, and its reasoning. I am not questioning your asking, just adding an additional focus. The question I ask gives you an area that would explain why changes won't be adopted. Alternate clock schemes are what I also have been researching.
I hope no offense continues to be taken by my other question.
- Rich
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